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Re: more on BCAL light yield estimates



I had a look at Yianna's result on Guideit.
She was finding almost the same number of photons from the core (which is
what the solid angle will give you) as for the cladding. Keep in mind that
this is a double cladding.So I think that 10% PER SIDE is a resonable
number to assume.
                            Cheers,Christine
> Hi,
>
> here's the Saint-Gobain Crystals link for the Bicron fibres info as well
> for anyone interested:
> http://www.detectors.saint-gobain.com/Media/Documents/S0000000000000001004/SGC%20Scintillating%20Optical%20Fibers%20Brochure%20605.pdf
>
>
> -Blake
>
>
> Alex Dzierba wrote:
>> OK - thanks - I was doing a trivial solid angle and there's obviously
>> more than that - thanks for the reference as well.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Alex
>>
>> At 10:51 AM -0600 11/16/07, Blake Leverington wrote:
>>> sorry it's (1-cos^2[theta])/2, which includes skew rays as well as
>>> meridional rays to give a trapping efficiency of ~10.6%., so this
>>> 9.3% which cam from Yianna's simulation is lower than predicted.
>>>
>>> -Blake
>>>
>>> Blake Leverington wrote:
>>>> hi Alex,
>>>>
>>>> The trapping efficiency for a fiber is (1-cos[theta]^2)/2,  not
>>>> (1-cos[theta])/2 which gives a trapping efficiency closer to 10.6%.
>>>> See http://arxiv.org/pdf/nucl-ex/0404008 on page 8.
>>>>
>>>> -Blake
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex Dzierba wrote:
>>>>> Thanks to George and Christine
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate and understand the comments - my goal was to
>>>>> use other sources to look at the issue and I agree that we
>>>>> need to quickly converge on putting down on paper what we
>>>>> know and make sure we can agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the capture fraction - I may be making a trivial error
>>>>> but it seems that to first order the fraction of the light
>>>>> generated at the source, assuming isotropic distribution,
>>>>> coming out one end within critical angle theta (measured
>>>>> along the fiber) is (1-cos[theta])/2 or the solid angle
>>>>> subtended divided by 4pi.  For theta = 27.6 degrees
>>>>> this leads to 5.3% out one end.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> At 4:27 PM -0600 11/15/07, George Lolos wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Christina:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you noticed with Alex's messages, we have been in frequent
>>>>>> communication on the issue of number of photo-electrons from the
>>>>>> BCAL.
>>>>>> I have a couple of comments on your message and Alex's analysis.  My
>>>>>> comments do not alter any conclusions but offer a bit more
>>>>>> refinements
>>>>>> for incorporation if work we need to pursue further on this matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  "Christina Kourkoumeli" <hkourkou@phys.uoa.gr> 11/15/07 10:26
>>>>>>>>> AM >>>
>>>>>>>>>  Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>  Let me also add some input to these arguments:few years ago I
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>  exactly what Alex did:I took the transmission spectra measured
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Regina
>>>>>>>>>  and available in the portal for different lengths of fibers
>>>>>>>>> and for
>>>>>> blue
>>>>>>>>>  and green fibers digitized them after normalizing to the tails
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>  furthermore I have multiplied by a typical Bialkali QE (all as a
>>>>>> function
>>>>>>>>>  of lambda ). After the product was done then I observed the
>>>>>> following:
>>>>>>>>>  at 5cm the green gave as much light as the blue
>>>>>>>>>  but at 175cm (the longest length available) the green was only
>>>>>>>>> 75%
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>  blue. This was also verfied by us with a rough experiment
>>>>>>>>> using UV
>>>>>> light
>>>>>>>>>  and green/blue fibers.So our conclusion was that the green
>>>>>>>>> fiber is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>  justifiable for a PM read-out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bialkali PMT has a Q.E. curve shown in Alex's message of
>>>>>> yesterday.
>>>>>> It's fairly flat between ~400-440 nm at around 23%.  Even as far as
>>>>>> ~
>>>>>> 500 nm, Q.E. is around 15%.  A blue fiber with peak emission at ~
>>>>>> 430
>>>>>> nm, at a distance from the source of 100 cm the peak emission is at
>>>>>> ~
>>>>>> 470 nm with very little strength left below 450 nm.   A green
>>>>>> SciFi, on
>>>>>> the other hand, has no emission whatsoever below 470 nm at 100 cm
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> the source.  So, I am surprised that the combination of green
>>>>>> SciFi and
>>>>>> blue PMT will give as much light as the same PMT with blue SciFi,
>>>>>> UNLESS
>>>>>> the latter has indeed lost so much of the "primary" wavelengths
>>>>>> due to
>>>>>> absorption right at the source while the green SciFi has not.
>>>>>> One also has to be careful to compare emission spectra of
>>>>>> identical or
>>>>>> very similar types of SciFi's.  For example, Alex used the curves
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Kuraray for SCSF-78 to base his calculations, however, he
>>>>>> normalized to
>>>>>> the curve shown by Bicron for BCF-12 to extrapolate to the
>>>>>> source.  For
>>>>>> "proof of principle", this is fine, however, there are some
>>>>>> differences
>>>>>> that will alter the final numbers.  SCSF-78 has a peak wavelength
>>>>>> of 450
>>>>>> nm and high photon yield (Kuraray's claim without numbers attached).
>>>>>> BCF-12, on the other hand has a peak wavelength of 435 nm.
>>>>>> Normalizing
>>>>>> the latter to the former is good for showing the effect but will not
>>>>>> give as accurate numbers as one will get with SciFi's of the same
>>>>>> kind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  Concerning the absolute numbers ,with different MC we always got
>>>>>>>>>  collection efficiency from both sides of the fiber higher than
>>>>>>>>> 9% so
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>  always assumed that it was 9% per side.
>>>>>>>>>  But I do agree that the spectrum after 2m of (175cm) has to be
>>>>>> normalized
>>>>>>>>>  to the 2cm one-absolute measurement-and then multiplied by the
>>>>>> functional
>>>>>>>>>  SiPM or PM efficiency to arrive at the right numbers.
>>>>>>                              Cheers,Christine
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Both GEANT-based and GUIDEIT - based simulations show 9.3% per
>>>>>> side as
>>>>>> well.  We will figure out what the "true" number is and document
>>>>>> it by
>>>>>> calculations for all of us to agree upon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> George
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  > Dear Colleagues
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  It is important for us to understand the apparent factor of 4
>>>>>> discrepancy
>>>>>>>  between the photoelectron yield estimates and measurements for
>>>>>>>  cosmic rays using the BCAL test module.  I find the same factor of
>>>>>>>  4 (roughly) as George -- but I get there by a somewhat different
>>>>>>> path.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Please read the attached and comment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Our goal should be to produce a note on our understanding of light
>>>>>>>  yields since setting specifications for the fibers and SiPM's
>>>>>>> depend
>>>>>>>  on this.   In my role as Design Report editor I will generate this
>>>>>> note
>>>>>>>  with help and input from others.   I will also be spending the
>>>>>>> first
>>>>>> week
>>>>>>>  of December in Regina working with my good friends there on the
>>>>>>> BCAL
>>>>>>>  section of the Design Report.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Cheers
>>>>>>>  Alex
>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>  Alex R. Dzierba
>>>>>>>  Chancellor's Professor of Physics (Emeritus)
>>>>>>>  Department of Physics / Indiana U / Bloomington IN 47405 /
>>>>>> 812-855-9421
>>>>>>>  JLab Visiting Fellow
>>>>>>>  Jefferson Lab / 12000 Jefferson Ave / Newport News, VA 23606 /
>>>>>>>  757-269-7577
>>>>>>>  Home Phone: 812-825-4063  Cell:  812-327-1881  Fax: 866-541-1263
>>>>>>>  http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/
>>>>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>