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Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)
Dear all,
I have been following this mail exchange and reminded myself of the
situation about 3 years ago when we were investigating the Russian market.
My colleague Pavlos Ioannou-who is Russian speaking and educated-will be
in Moscow in abou 3 weeks and can certainly get in touch with Dolgoshein,
who is an old colleague of ours back in the 80's in the CERN ISR
experiments with NaI arrays.
Of course my many year working experience with the Russians is the following:
1) they do not keep quality up and deadlines
2) They can change the price from one day to the other
But if we think that we can work with them ,then we may want to look at B
field resistant PM's which they have developed as well, for the outer
layers!!
Cheers,Christine
> Hi all:
>
> There's a certain amount of nonsense circulating around the large area
> SiPM issue. First of all, nobody now has anything larger than 3mm x 3mm
> although Hamamatsu plans to produce 10 mm x 10 mm and MEPHi plans to
> also produce a bit larger SiPM's. Planned and produced are two
> different things. However, when they are produced, of course one would
> be wise to obtain some for testing and getting price quotes.
>
> The argument that we have financed SensL's developments with the $225 k
> spent so far is pure fiction! Their outlay of capital on the large
> arrays is much larger than that by about a factor of two or more. In
> fact, their medical imaging investors have partly financed our array
> development. Just on salaries alone for the physicists they have hired
> and the engineer put on the project, the amount exceeds $225 k and the
> cost of so many Si wafers is quite considerable.
>
> The bottom line is that it is wiser for us to stick to the technical
> aspects of the project and consider the final price from whatever source
> we decide to buy in the end and leave supposition and statements without
> base where they belong.
>
> George
>
>>>> Elke-Caroline Aschenauer <elke@jlab.org> 02/26/08 7:47 AM >>>
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008, Curtis A. Meyer wrote:
>
> Curtis,
>
> things are a bit more complicated, we are currently having a sole source
> agreement with Sensl and the argument is, there is nobody else on the
> market who is able to do this. The latest contract is 200k$ just signed
> a
> week ago, we get in big trouble if this is not true and the latest
> developments indicate that there might be soon more providers. so we
> have
> to investigate this seriously. And for me this means to test new things
> on
> the market.
> Actually the total investment in the SiPMTs is quite high and I
> must admit I get also a bit doubts on the promised price by Sensl.
> In addition I have a bit the feeling we fund quite a bit their
> development
> for the arrays. Especially after what I saw on the german funding agency
> meeting I have been last friday. we will see what sensl delivers in the
> next six month and what the delays are on the contract.
>
> elke
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:09:26 -0500
>> From: Curtis A. Meyer <cmeyer@ernest.phys.cmu.edu>
>> To: Elke-Caroline Aschenauer <elke@jlab.org>
>> Cc: George Lolos <George.Lolos@uregina.ca>, elton@jlab.org,
> zorn@jlab.org,
>> halld-cal@jlab.org
>> Subject: Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)
>>
>> Hi Everyone -
>>
>> while the historical performance of SciPMs may not be relevant
> today,
>> I think that the question that Elton asked about the report that he
> got
>> from Mahbub on results that were first presented in 2005. In that
> snese,
>> I assume that we got the answer we wanted. Clearly when we get to
>> the point of purchase, we will look at everything again, but knowing
> the
>> history of this rapid deveolpement is not at all bad.
>>
>> Curtis
>> On Tue February 26 2008, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer wrote:
>> > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, George Lolos wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > a discussion like that makes not to much sense it is based to much
> on hear
>> > say and historical information. The developemnt is quite fast on
> this
>> > market, so to judge things on a year old information is not a good
>> > strategy.
>> >
>> > I suggest we investigate what is available and buy if the products
> are in
>> > the suitable range for us, running at room temeperature and a chance
> for
>> > getting bigger arrays in 2 years from now a couple of different
> SiPMTs and
>> > compare them. Carl we can look into this after the fiber
> measurements are
>> > complited.
>> >
>> > We discuss this in more detail on friday if I'm back.
>> >
>> > cheers elke
>> >
>> >
>> > > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:15:14 -0600
>> > > From: George Lolos <George.Lolos@uregina.ca>
>> > > To: elton@jlab.org, zorn@jlab.org
>> > > Cc: halld-cal@jlab.org
>> > > Subject: Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)
>> > >
>> > > Hi Elton:
>> > >
>> > > Last year, there was a conference report on the 3mm x 3mm MEPHI
> SiPM and
>> > > they showed single photoelectron resolution comparable with what
> Carl
>> > > has shown at -20 C for the SensL. However, the MEPHI measurement
> was
>> > > taken at -50 C, I have the file somewhere and I can dig it up if
>> > > necessary. I don't know what is the performance of their latest
> version
>> > > but I suspect it is based on the results shown in that
> presentation.
>> > >
>> > > With SensL announcing their 3mm x 3mm commercial SiPM's sold as a
>> > > package with cooling and compact electronics, it was only a matter
> of
>> > > time before other companies did the same. If history is any
> indication,
>> > > the MEPHI detectors will be more noisy and with more variations
> than
>> > > those of CPTA and/or Hamamatsu.
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > >
>> > > George
>> > >
>> > > >>> Elton Smith <elton@jlab.org> 02/25/08 2:59 PM >>>
>> > >
>> > > Hi George and Carl,
>> > >
>> > > Below is a reference to Buzhan et al, NIM A567 (2006)78-82
> describing a
>> > > 3x3mm2 SiPM from MEPhI. Do you know anything about this? Comments?
>> > >
>> > > Cheers, Elton.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Mahbub Khandaker wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Dear Elton,
>> > > > Attached is an article on large-area SiPM that Boris
> Dolgoshein
>> > > > and his group at MEPhI has been developing. Most of the results
>> > > > are from 3mm x 3mm units but they say that 10mm x 10mm units are
>> > > > in development. These results were first presented at the 4th
> ICNDP,
>> > > > Beaune-2005 conference in France.
>> > > >
>> > > > Best regards,
>> > > > Mahbub
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
>> > ) `\ -
>> > / '. | +
>> > | `, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer =
>> > \,_ `-/ -
>> > ,&&&&&V Jefferson Lab +
>> > ,&&&&&&&&: HALL-D 12C / F381 121-A Atlantic Avenue =
>> > ,&&&&&&&&&&; Suite 8 Hampton, VA 23664 -
>> > | |&&&&&&&;\ 12000 Jefferson Ave +
>> > | | :_) _ Newport News, VA 23606 Tel.: 001-757-224-1216 =
>> > | | ;--' | Mail: elke@jlab.org Mobil: 001-757-256-5224
> -
>> > '--' `-.--. |
> +
>> > \_ | |---' Tel.: 001-757-269-5352
> =
>> > `-._\__/ Fax.: 001-757-269-6331
> -
>> >
> +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Professor Curtis A. Meyer Department of Physics
>> Phone: (412) 268-2745 Carnegie Mellon University
>> Fax: (412) 681-0648 Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890
>> cmeyer@ernest.phys.cmu.edu http://www.curtismeyer.com/
>>
>
> ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
> ) `\ -
> / '. | +
> | `, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer =
> \,_ `-/ -
> ,&&&&&V Jefferson Lab +
> ,&&&&&&&&: HALL-D 12C / F381 121-A Atlantic Avenue =
> ,&&&&&&&&&&; Suite 8 Hampton, VA 23664 -
> | |&&&&&&&;\ 12000 Jefferson Ave +
> | | :_) _ Newport News, VA 23606 Tel.: 001-757-224-1216 =
> | | ;--' | Mail: elke@jlab.org Mobil: 001-757-256-5224 -
> '--' `-.--. | +
> \_ | |---' Tel.: 001-757-269-5352 =
> `-._\__/ Fax.: 001-757-269-6331 -
>
> +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
>
>
>