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Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)



On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, Christina Kourkoumeli wrote:

Dear Christina,

that is a good idea. I would be very helpful to understand what the
situation is  from first hand information.
It would be also good to know what the plans for the next 2 years are. But
please don't offer any payments from our side for developments.

Thanks elke


> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:59:27 +0200 (EET)
> From: Christina Kourkoumeli <hkourkou@phys.uoa.gr>
> To: George Lolos <George.Lolos@uregina.ca>
> Cc: cmeyer@ernest.phys.cmu.edu, elke@jlab.org, elton@jlab.org,
>      halld-cal@jlab.org, zorn@jlab.org
> Subject: Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)
>
> Dear all,
> I have been following this mail exchange and reminded myself of the
> situation about 3 years ago when we were investigating the Russian market.
> My colleague Pavlos Ioannou-who is Russian speaking and educated-will be
> in Moscow in abou 3 weeks and can certainly get in touch with Dolgoshein,
> who is an old colleague of ours back in the 80's in the CERN ISR
> experiments with NaI arrays.
> Of course my many year working experience with the Russians is the following:
> 1) they do not keep quality up and deadlines
> 2) They can change the price from one day to the other
> But if we think that we can work with them ,then we may want to look at B
> field resistant PM's which they have developed as well, for the outer
> layers!!
>                           Cheers,Christine
> > Hi all:
> >
> > There's a certain amount of nonsense circulating around the large area
> > SiPM issue.  First of all, nobody now has anything larger than 3mm x 3mm
> > although Hamamatsu plans to produce 10 mm x 10 mm and MEPHi plans to
> > also produce a bit larger SiPM's.  Planned and produced are two
> > different things.  However, when they are produced, of course one would
> > be wise to obtain some for testing and getting price quotes.
> >
> > The argument that we have financed SensL's developments with the $225 k
> > spent so far is pure fiction!  Their outlay of capital on the large
> > arrays is much larger than that by about a factor of two or more.  In
> > fact, their medical imaging investors have partly financed our array
> > development.  Just on salaries alone for the physicists they have hired
> > and the engineer put on the project, the amount exceeds $225 k and the
> > cost of so many Si wafers is quite considerable.
> >
> > The bottom line is that it is wiser for us to stick to the technical
> > aspects of the project and consider the final price from whatever source
> > we decide to buy in the end and leave supposition and statements without
> > base where they belong.
> >
> > George
> >
> >>>> Elke-Caroline Aschenauer <elke@jlab.org> 02/26/08 7:47 AM >>>
> > On Tue, 26 Feb 2008, Curtis A. Meyer wrote:
> >
> > Curtis,
> >
> > things are a bit more complicated, we are currently having a sole source
> > agreement with Sensl and the argument is, there is nobody else on the
> > market who is able to do this. The latest contract is 200k$ just signed
> > a
> > week ago, we get in big trouble if this is not true and the latest
> > developments indicate that there might be soon more providers. so we
> > have
> > to investigate this seriously. And for me this means to test new things
> > on
> > the market.
> > Actually the total investment in the SiPMTs is quite high and I
> > must admit I get also a bit doubts on the promised price by Sensl.
> > In addition I have a bit the feeling we fund quite a bit their
> > development
> > for the arrays. Especially after what I saw on the german funding agency
> > meeting I have been last friday. we will see what sensl delivers in the
> > next six month and what the delays are on the contract.
> >
> > elke
> >
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:09:26 -0500
> >> From: Curtis A. Meyer <cmeyer@ernest.phys.cmu.edu>
> >> To: Elke-Caroline Aschenauer <elke@jlab.org>
> >> Cc: George Lolos <George.Lolos@uregina.ca>, elton@jlab.org,
> > zorn@jlab.org,
> >>      halld-cal@jlab.org
> >> Subject: Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)
> >>
> >> Hi Everyone -
> >>
> >>     while the historical performance of SciPMs may not be relevant
> > today,
> >> I think that the question that Elton asked about the report that he
> > got
> >> from Mahbub on results that were first presented in 2005. In that
> > snese,
> >> I assume that we got the answer we wanted. Clearly when we get to
> >> the point of purchase, we will look at everything again, but knowing
> > the
> >> history of this rapid deveolpement is not at all bad.
> >>
> >>    Curtis
> >> On Tue February 26 2008, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer wrote:
> >> > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, George Lolos wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear all,
> >> >
> >> > a discussion like that makes not to much sense it is based to much
> > on hear
> >> > say and historical information. The developemnt is quite fast on
> > this
> >> > market, so to judge things on a year old information is not a good
> >> > strategy.
> >> >
> >> > I suggest we investigate what is available and buy if the products
> > are in
> >> > the suitable range for us, running at room temeperature and a chance
> > for
> >> > getting bigger arrays in 2 years from now a couple of different
> > SiPMTs and
> >> > compare them. Carl we can look into this after the fiber
> > measurements are
> >> > complited.
> >> >
> >> > We discuss this in more detail on friday if I'm back.
> >> >
> >> > cheers elke
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:15:14 -0600
> >> > > From: George Lolos <George.Lolos@uregina.ca>
> >> > > To: elton@jlab.org, zorn@jlab.org
> >> > > Cc: halld-cal@jlab.org
> >> > > Subject: Re: Large area SiPMs from MEPhI (fwd)
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi Elton:
> >> > >
> >> > > Last year, there was a conference report on the 3mm x 3mm MEPHI
> > SiPM and
> >> > > they showed single photoelectron resolution comparable with what
> > Carl
> >> > > has shown at -20 C for the SensL.  However, the MEPHI measurement
> > was
> >> > > taken at -50 C, I have the file somewhere and I can dig it up if
> >> > > necessary.  I don't know what is the performance of their latest
> > version
> >> > > but I suspect it is based on the results shown in that
> > presentation.
> >> > >
> >> > > With SensL announcing their 3mm x 3mm commercial SiPM's sold as a
> >> > > package with cooling and compact electronics, it was only a matter
> > of
> >> > > time before other companies did the same.  If history is any
> > indication,
> >> > > the MEPHI detectors will be more noisy and with more variations
> > than
> >> > > those of CPTA and/or Hamamatsu.
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers,
> >> > >
> >> > > George
> >> > >
> >> > > >>> Elton Smith <elton@jlab.org> 02/25/08 2:59 PM >>>
> >> > >
> >> > > Hi George and Carl,
> >> > >
> >> > > Below is a reference to Buzhan et al, NIM A567 (2006)78-82
> > describing a
> >> > > 3x3mm2 SiPM from MEPhI. Do you know anything about this? Comments?
> >> > >
> >> > > Cheers, Elton.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Mahbub Khandaker wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Dear Elton,
> >> > > >    Attached is an article on large-area SiPM that Boris
> > Dolgoshein
> >> > > > and his group at MEPhI has been developing.  Most of the results
> >> > > > are from 3mm x 3mm units but they say that 10mm x 10mm units are
> >> > > > in development.  These results were first presented at the 4th
> > ICNDP,
> >> > > > Beaune-2005 conference in France.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Best regards,
> >> > > > Mahbub
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >  ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
> >> >   )    `\                                                  -
> >> >  /    '. |                                                  +
> >> >  |       `,              Elke-Caroline Aschenauer            =
> >> >   \,_  `-/                                                    -
> >> >   ,&&&&&V         Jefferson Lab                                +
> >> >  ,&&&&&&&&:       HALL-D 12C / F381       121-A Atlantic Avenue =
> >> > ,&&&&&&&&&&;      Suite 8                 Hampton, VA 23664      -
> >> > |  |&&&&&&&;\     12000 Jefferson Ave                             +
> >> > |  |       :_) _  Newport News, VA 23606  Tel.:  001-757-224-1216  =
> >> > |  |       ;--' | Mail:  elke@jlab.org    Mobil: 001-757-256-5224
> > -
> >> > '--'   `-.--.   |
> > +
> >> >    \_    |  |---' Tel.:  001-757-269-5352
> >  =
> >> >      `-._\__/     Fax.:  001-757-269-6331
> >   -
> >> >
> > +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Professor Curtis A. Meyer        Department of Physics
> >> Phone:  (412) 268-2745          Carnegie Mellon University
> >> Fax:    (412) 681-0648            Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890
> >> cmeyer@ernest.phys.cmu.edu  http://www.curtismeyer.com/
> >>
> >
> >  ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
> >   )    `\                                                  -
> >  /    '. |                                                  +
> >  |       `,              Elke-Caroline Aschenauer            =
> >   \,_  `-/                                                    -
> >   ,&&&&&V         Jefferson Lab                                +
> >  ,&&&&&&&&:       HALL-D 12C / F381       121-A Atlantic Avenue =
> > ,&&&&&&&&&&;      Suite 8                 Hampton, VA 23664      -
> > |  |&&&&&&&;\     12000 Jefferson Ave                             +
> > |  |       :_) _  Newport News, VA 23606  Tel.:  001-757-224-1216  =
> > |  |       ;--' | Mail:  elke@jlab.org    Mobil: 001-757-256-5224   -
> > '--'   `-.--.   |                                                    +
> >    \_    |  |---' Tel.:  001-757-269-5352                             =
> >      `-._\__/     Fax.:  001-757-269-6331                              -
> >
> > +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

 ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
  )    `\                                                  -
 /    '. |                                                  +
 |       `,              Elke-Caroline Aschenauer            =
  \,_  `-/                                                    -
  ,&&&&&V         Jefferson Lab                                +
 ,&&&&&&&&:       HALL-D 12C / F381       121-A Atlantic Avenue =
,&&&&&&&&&&;      Suite 8                 Hampton, VA 23664      -
|  |&&&&&&&;\     12000 Jefferson Ave                             +
|  |       :_) _  Newport News, VA 23606  Tel.:  001-757-224-1216  =
|  |       ;--' | Mail:  elke@jlab.org    Mobil: 001-757-256-5224   -
'--'   `-.--.   |                                                    +
   \_    |  |---' Tel.:  001-757-269-5352                             =
     `-._\__/     Fax.:  001-757-269-6331                              -
            +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+