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Re: robot for circuit boards
Hall D Electronics:
Elke - I agree with you entirely. Paul - is there interest at IU
to take the robot?
Alex
At 9:16 AM -0400 5/31/07, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer wrote:
>On Thu, 31 May 2007, Alex Dzierba wrote:
>
>Alex,
>
>Paul is to my knowledge on the electronics list. I think if IU uses the
>machine wonderful, but maybe if it is used for atlas, the maintenace cost
>should not be paid from jlab, but atlas. My understanding talking to
>people is, it was bought to produce the CW bases for the fcal, but now we
>built them in industry, fine.
>Paying close to ~190k$ for a machine wich is used 1 month / year seems
>strange to me, especially if I spend all my time searching for dollars
>instead of science.
>
>elke
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:55:48 -0400
>> From: Alex Dzierba <dzierba@indiana.edu>
>> To: C. Cuevas <cuevas@jlab.org>, "Visser, Gerard" <gvisser@indiana.edu>
>> Cc: Elke-Caroline Aschenauer <elke@jlab.org>, halld-electronics@jlab.org,
>> ptsmith@indiana.edu, mashephe@indiana.edu
>> Subject: Re: robot for circuit boards
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> We should ask Paul Smith to weigh in on this (I am cc-ing him and Matt in
>> case they are not in this loop).
>>
>> The robotics was effectively used to manufacture 100 Cockcroft-Walton bases
>> that will be used for the FCAL beam tests. Paul also used it to produce
>> boards for ATLAS. The consensus seems to be that it is ideal for
>> prototyping. Paul, who now also coordinates the IU Physics Dept Electronics
>> shop may want to say something about acquiring the robotics for IU.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Alex
>>
>> At 8:46 AM -0400 5/31/07, C. Cuevas wrote:
>> >Hall D Electronics:
>> >
>> >HI,
>> >
>> >The special handling and ability to assemble small quantities
>> >quickly, was definitely the motivation for purchasing this machine
>> >back in June of 2003. At Jlab, and I speak for several groups, we
>> >have the equipment and personnel to assemble prototype circuit
>> >boards. Once the prototype has passed verification, we send the
>> >boards and components to a commercial vendor. If the quantities are
>> >small or the circuit board is not complex, we use the assembly
>> >equipment and personnel to build the 'production' boards, test and
>> >deliver the board project. There are too many examples of this
>> >'in-house' model that have been successful, and of course we use
>> >industry to build the complex, larger quantity production boards
>> >such as the F1TDC, and many other modules because it is much more
>> >cost effective.
>> >
>> >Around this time last year, we discussed the circuit board assembly
>> >machine.(Deja-Vu) There was a proposal that the machine could be
>> >purchased from Jlab for a market price value by IU. It was a very
>> >low price compared to the original purchase price, and IU had a few
>> >Staff members that had experience with the machine. Things change
>> >and people change jobs, etc, etc, and I had talked it over with a
>> >few colleagues at Jlab (other divisions) about the machine's
>> >capabilities, and trying to find space that would be adequate for
>> >the machine. Plus, as Gerard points out, it would require a
>> >(almost) full time technician to manage the board projects, maintain
>> >the machine, learn the setup/software, fix the problems, etc. I was
>> >not successful and did not receive support to secure a location nor
>> >personnel to operate the machine.
>> >I will say it for the last time:
>> >1. This machine was expensive and has a high yearly maintenance cost.
>> >2. The machine has unique capabilities and if we continue to pay
>> >for it, it MUST be used to complete assembly projects for IU, Jlab,
>> >GlueX collaboration, etc.
>> >3. If it stays at IU, hire a person to keep it running.
>> >4. If it moves to Jlab, there must be a dedicated location and
>> >technical support.
>> >
>> >At Jlab, we have lived without the machine, but given the number of
> > >groups(Accelerator, RF, Detector/Imaging,FEL,Physics) developing
> > >circuitry(prototypes) for different projects, it may be beneficial
>> >in the long run to set it up here, but we must have agreement across
>> >divisions for long term support.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >Chris
>> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Visser, Gerard wrote:
>> >>Hall D Electronics:
>> >>
>> >>Hi Elke,
>> >> This is tough question, really. My opinion has always been, you
>> >>can get assembly done by professional commercial assembly vendors,
>> >>so it does not pay to have such capability in house. There are of
>> >>course some exceptions that could be taken to this point of view.
>> >>1- very fast turnaround for prototypes is possible if you have the
>> >>equipment and expertise in house. [But, you can also get very fast
>> >>turnaround commercially, if you have $.] 2- some boards may need
>> >>such special handling that you don't trust them to a commercial
>> >>vendor. I think this was the motivation, in relation especially to
>> >>the capacitors of Cockroft-Walton base, which are certainly subject
>> >>to leakage current problems if handled roughly or soldered or
>> >>cleaned with the wrong process. [But, there are many special boards
>> >>in the commercial & military world too, and vendors who are used to
>> >>such stuff.] 3- if a lot of repetitive rework is needed, e.g.,
>> >>replace some chips on a whole lot of assembled boards. [But aga!
>> >in, you can find a company to do this too, if needed.]
>> >> Probably for "normal" rework robotics is probably not necessary,
>> >>just manual use of hot air soldering tools. But <1mm pitch BGA's
>> >>for instance, that may just not work. I'm hoping to avoid such
>> >>parts if possible.
>> >> For the assembly (including visual inspection and rework to meet
>> >>that) of 200 of the ADC100 modules (400 printed circuit boards), we
>> >>have on the budget ~190k. _If_ we have this robotics machine
>> >>available, and a full-time expert to run it (certainly not me!), it
>> >>is conceivable that the assembly work can be done for less money.
>> >>At least this would be my guess; say 17k for the machine
>> >>maintenance that year, 10k for supplies, 50k for half a year of
>> >>this expert's time, some money for the lab space to do this in.
>> >> I don't know, therefore, quite what to recommend. I think we
>> >>could certainly live without it, but if someone makes it a project
>> >>to leverage the investment in the machine it could in the end save
>> >>the project a significant amount of money. Until we know that, I
>> >>think the electronics assembly costing should be based on
>> >>commercial vendors.
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Gerard
>> >>
>> >>________________________________
>> >>
>> >>From: owner-halld-electronics@jlab.org on behalf of
>>Elke-Caroline Aschenauer
>> >>Sent: Wed 5/30/2007 6:16 PM
>> >>To: Elke-Caroline Aschenauer
>> >>Cc: halld-electronics@jlab.org
>> >>Subject: robot for circuit boards
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Hall D Electronics:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>Dear Mitch, Fernando, Paul, Chris and Gerard,
>> >>
>> >>okay, I learned today that some time ago we bought a "robot" to assemble
>> >>circuit boards, we are still paying the maintenance costs (17k$/year).
>> >>Paul are you using it at the moment for anything.
>> >>If not is the need from Gerard or is there either need at JLAB or at
>> >>Mitch's place.
>> >>
>> >>I'm sure Paul can give any detail needed on the robot. I'm writing as I'm
>> >>a bit concerned about having a 100k$ machine sitting there and paying in
>> >>addition 17k$/year for maintenance.
>> >>
>> >>So please tell me if one of you could use the robot.
>> >>
>> >>cheers elke
>> >>
>> >> ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
>> >> ) `\ -
>> >> / '. | +
>> >> | `, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer =
>> >> \,_ `-/ -
>> >> ,&&&&&V Jefferson Lab +
>> >> ,&&&&&&&&: HALL-D 12C / F381 121-A Atlantic Avenue =
>> >>,&&&&&&&&&&; Mailstop: 12H5 Hampton, VA 23664 -
> > >>| |&&&&&&&;\ 12000 Jefferson Ave +
> > >>| | :_) _ Newport News, VA 23606 Tel.: 001-757-224-1216 =
>> >>| | ;--' | Mail: elke@jlab.org Mobil: 001-757-256-5224 -
>> >>'--' `-.--. | +
>> >> \_ | |---' Tel.: 001-757-269-5352 =
>> >> `-._\__/ Fax.: 001-757-269-6248 -
>> >> +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Alex R. Dzierba
>> Chancellor's Professor of Physics (Emeritus)
>> Department of Physics / Indiana U / Bloomington IN 47405 / 812-855-9421
>> JLab Visiting Fellow
>> Jefferson Lab / 12000 Jefferson Ave / Newport News, VA 23606 / 757-269-7577
>> Home Phone: 812-825-4063 Cell: 812-327-1881 Fax: 866-541-1263
>> http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
> ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
> ) `\ -
> / '. | +
> | `, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer =
> \,_ `-/ -
> ,&&&&&V Jefferson Lab +
> ,&&&&&&&&: HALL-D 12C / F381 121-A Atlantic Avenue =
>,&&&&&&&&&&; Mailstop: 12H5 Hampton, VA 23664 -
>| |&&&&&&&;\ 12000 Jefferson Ave +
>| | :_) _ Newport News, VA 23606 Tel.: 001-757-224-1216 =
>| | ;--' | Mail: elke@jlab.org Mobil: 001-757-256-5224 -
>'--' `-.--. | +
> \_ | |---' Tel.: 001-757-269-5352 =
> `-._\__/ Fax.: 001-757-269-6248 -
> +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alex R. Dzierba
Chancellor's Professor of Physics (Emeritus)
Department of Physics / Indiana U / Bloomington IN 47405 / 812-855-9421
JLab Visiting Fellow
Jefferson Lab / 12000 Jefferson Ave / Newport News, VA 23606 / 757-269-7577
Home Phone: 812-825-4063 Cell: 812-327-1881 Fax: 866-541-1263
http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~