[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: robot for circuit boards



Hall D Electronics:

Elke - I agree with you entirely.  Paul - is there interest at IU
to take the robot?

Alex

At 9:16 AM -0400 5/31/07, Elke-Caroline Aschenauer wrote:
>On Thu, 31 May 2007, Alex Dzierba wrote:
>
>Alex,
>
>Paul is to my knowledge on the electronics list. I think if IU uses the
>machine wonderful, but maybe if it is used for atlas, the maintenace cost
>should not be paid from jlab, but atlas. My understanding talking to
>people is, it was bought to produce the CW bases for the fcal, but now we
>built them in industry, fine.
>Paying close to ~190k$ for a machine wich is used 1 month / year seems
>strange to me, especially if I spend all my time searching for dollars
>instead of science.
>
>elke
>
>
>>  Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:55:48 -0400
>>  From: Alex Dzierba <dzierba@indiana.edu>
>>  To: C. Cuevas <cuevas@jlab.org>, "Visser, Gerard" <gvisser@indiana.edu>
>>  Cc: Elke-Caroline Aschenauer <elke@jlab.org>, halld-electronics@jlab.org,
>>       ptsmith@indiana.edu, mashephe@indiana.edu
>>  Subject: Re: robot for circuit boards
>>
>>  Hi All
>>
>>  We should ask Paul Smith to  weigh in on this (I am cc-ing him and Matt in
>>  case they are not in this loop).
>>
>>  The robotics was effectively used to manufacture 100 Cockcroft-Walton bases
>>  that will be used for the FCAL beam tests.  Paul also used it to produce
>>  boards for ATLAS.  The consensus seems to be that it is ideal for
>>  prototyping.  Paul, who now also coordinates the IU Physics Dept Electronics
>>  shop may want to say something about acquiring the robotics for IU.
>>
>>  Cheers
>>  Alex
>>
>>  At 8:46 AM -0400 5/31/07, C. Cuevas wrote:
>>  >Hall D Electronics:
>>  >
>>  >HI,
>>  >
>>  >The special handling and ability to assemble small quantities
>>  >quickly, was definitely the motivation for purchasing this machine
>>  >back in June of 2003.  At Jlab, and I speak for several groups, we
>>  >have the equipment and personnel to assemble prototype circuit
>>  >boards.  Once the prototype has passed verification, we send the
>>  >boards and components to a commercial vendor.  If the quantities are
>>  >small or the circuit board is not complex, we use the assembly
>>  >equipment and personnel to build the 'production' boards, test and
>>  >deliver the board project.  There are too many examples of this
>>  >'in-house' model that have been successful, and of course we use
>>  >industry to build the complex, larger quantity production boards
>>  >such as the F1TDC, and many other modules because it is much more
>>  >cost effective.
>>  >
>>  >Around this time last year, we discussed the circuit board assembly
>>  >machine.(Deja-Vu) There was a proposal that the machine could be
>>  >purchased from Jlab for a market price value by IU.  It was a very
>>  >low price compared to the original purchase price, and IU had a few
>>  >Staff members that had experience with the machine.  Things change
>>  >and people change jobs, etc, etc, and I had talked it over with a
>>  >few colleagues at Jlab (other divisions) about the machine's
>>  >capabilities, and trying to find space that would be adequate for
>>  >the machine.  Plus, as Gerard points out, it would require a
>>  >(almost) full time technician to manage the board projects, maintain
>>  >the machine, learn the setup/software, fix the problems, etc.  I was
>>  >not successful and did not receive support to secure a location nor
>>  >personnel to operate the machine.
>>  >I will say it for the last time:
>>  >1.  This machine was expensive and has a high yearly maintenance cost.
>>  >2.  The machine has unique capabilities and if we continue to pay
>>  >for it, it MUST be used to complete assembly projects for IU, Jlab,
>>  >GlueX collaboration, etc.
>>  >3.  If it stays at IU, hire a person to keep it running.
>>  >4.  If it moves to Jlab, there must be a dedicated location and
>>  >technical support.
>>  >
>>  >At Jlab, we have lived without the machine, but given the number of
>  > >groups(Accelerator, RF, Detector/Imaging,FEL,Physics) developing
>  > >circuitry(prototypes) for different projects, it may be beneficial
>>  >in the long run to set it up here, but we must have agreement across
>>  >divisions for long term support.
>>  >
>>  >Cheers,
>>  >Chris
>>  >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Visser, Gerard wrote:
>>  >>Hall D Electronics:
>>  >>
>>  >>Hi Elke,
>>  >>   This is tough question, really. My opinion has always been, you
>>  >>can get assembly done by professional commercial assembly vendors,
>>  >>so it does not pay to have such capability in house. There are of
>>  >>course some exceptions that could be taken to this point of view.
>>  >>1- very fast turnaround for prototypes is possible if you have the
>>  >>equipment and expertise in house. [But, you can also get very fast
>>  >>turnaround commercially, if you have $.] 2- some boards may need
>>  >>such special handling that you don't trust them to a commercial
>>  >>vendor. I think this was the motivation, in relation especially to
>>  >>the capacitors of Cockroft-Walton base, which are certainly subject
>>  >>to leakage current problems if handled roughly or soldered or
>>  >>cleaned with the wrong process. [But, there are many special boards
>>  >>in the commercial & military world too, and vendors who are used to
>>  >>such stuff.] 3- if a lot of repetitive rework is needed, e.g.,
>>  >>replace some chips on a whole lot of assembled boards. [But aga!
>>  >in, you can find a company to do this too, if needed.]
>>  >>   Probably for "normal" rework robotics is probably not necessary,
>>  >>just manual use of hot air soldering tools. But <1mm pitch BGA's
>>  >>for instance, that may just not work. I'm hoping to avoid such
>>  >>parts if possible.
>>  >>   For the assembly (including visual inspection and rework to meet
>>  >>that) of 200 of the ADC100 modules (400 printed circuit boards), we
>>  >>have on the budget ~190k. _If_ we have this robotics machine
>>  >>available, and a full-time expert to run it (certainly not me!), it
>>  >>is conceivable that the assembly work can be done for less money.
>>  >>At least this would be my guess; say 17k for the machine
>>  >>maintenance that year, 10k for supplies, 50k for half a year of
>>  >>this expert's time, some money for the lab space to do this in.
>>  >>   I don't know, therefore, quite what to recommend. I think we
>>  >>could certainly live without it, but if someone makes it a project
>>  >>to leverage the investment in the machine it could in the end save
>>  >>the project a significant amount of money. Until we know that, I
>>  >>think the electronics assembly costing should be based on
>>  >>commercial vendors.
>>  >>   Thanks,
>>  >>    Gerard
>>  >>
>>  >>________________________________
>>  >>
>>  >>From: owner-halld-electronics@jlab.org on behalf of 
>>Elke-Caroline Aschenauer
>>  >>Sent: Wed 5/30/2007 6:16 PM
>>  >>To: Elke-Caroline Aschenauer
>>  >>Cc: halld-electronics@jlab.org
>>  >>Subject: robot for circuit boards
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Hall D Electronics:
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>Dear Mitch, Fernando, Paul, Chris and Gerard,
>>  >>
>>  >>okay, I learned today that some time ago we bought a "robot" to assemble
>>  >>circuit boards, we are still paying the maintenance costs (17k$/year).
>>  >>Paul are you using it at the moment for anything.
>>  >>If not is the need from Gerard or is there either need at JLAB or at
>>  >>Mitch's place.
>>  >>
>>  >>I'm sure Paul can give any detail needed on the robot. I'm writing as I'm
>>  >>a bit concerned about having a 100k$ machine sitting there and paying in
>>  >>addition 17k$/year for maintenance.
>>  >>
>>  >>So please tell me if one of you could use the robot.
>>  >>
>>  >>cheers elke
>>  >>
>>  >>  ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
>>  >>   )    `\                                                  -
>>  >>  /    '. |                                                  +
>>  >>  |       `,              Elke-Caroline Aschenauer            =
>>  >>   \,_  `-/                                                    -
>>  >>   ,&&&&&V         Jefferson Lab                                +
>>  >>  ,&&&&&&&&:       HALL-D 12C / F381       121-A Atlantic Avenue =
>>  >>,&&&&&&&&&&;      Mailstop: 12H5          Hampton, VA 23664      -
>  > >>|  |&&&&&&&;\     12000 Jefferson Ave                             +
>  > >>|  |       :_) _  Newport News, VA 23606  Tel.:  001-757-224-1216  =
>>  >>|  |       ;--' | Mail:  elke@jlab.org    Mobil: 001-757-256-5224   -
>>  >>'--'   `-.--.   |                                                    +
>>  >>    \_    |  |---' Tel.:  001-757-269-5352                             =
>>  >>      `-._\__/     Fax.:  001-757-269-6248                              -
>>  >>             +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  Alex R. Dzierba
>>  Chancellor's Professor of Physics (Emeritus)
>>  Department of Physics / Indiana U / Bloomington IN 47405 / 812-855-9421
>>  JLab Visiting Fellow
>>  Jefferson Lab / 12000 Jefferson Ave / Newport News, VA 23606 / 757-269-7577
>>  Home Phone: 812-825-4063  Cell:  812-327-1881  Fax: 866-541-1263
>>  http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/
>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
>  ( `,_' )+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=
>   )    `\                                                  -
>  /    '. |                                                  +
>  |       `,              Elke-Caroline Aschenauer            =
>   \,_  `-/                                                    -
>   ,&&&&&V         Jefferson Lab                                +
>  ,&&&&&&&&:       HALL-D 12C / F381       121-A Atlantic Avenue =
>,&&&&&&&&&&;      Mailstop: 12H5          Hampton, VA 23664      -
>|  |&&&&&&&;\     12000 Jefferson Ave                             +
>|  |       :_) _  Newport News, VA 23606  Tel.:  001-757-224-1216  =
>|  |       ;--' | Mail:  elke@jlab.org    Mobil: 001-757-256-5224   -
>'--'   `-.--.   |                                                    +
>    \_    |  |---' Tel.:  001-757-269-5352                             =
>      `-._\__/     Fax.:  001-757-269-6248                              -
>             +=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+=-+


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Alex R. Dzierba
Chancellor's Professor of Physics (Emeritus)
Department of Physics / Indiana U / Bloomington IN 47405 / 812-855-9421
JLab Visiting Fellow
Jefferson Lab / 12000 Jefferson Ave / Newport News, VA 23606 / 757-269-7577
Home Phone: 812-825-4063  Cell:  812-327-1881  Fax: 866-541-1263
http://dustbunny.physics.indiana.edu/~dzierba/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~